131mirafiori forum

Hi everybody,
I have a serious problem even since I am a Fiat mechanic for 25 years and am rebuilding a group 4 car.
I have a 1978 (one of the first) 131 Racing which won't run. The engine simply doesn't start. I already checked timing and compression, changed cilinder-head, double carbs, complete ignition but it won't run. Towed it three blocks and changed ignition-timing several times. Somewhere between big flames coming from the carbs and big bangs from the exhaust there must be a moment that the engine will run, I think. Does anybody have a suggestion? What am I missing here?
This engine has the following: race-cams with adjustable camwheels,
                                                bigger valves which are perfectly timed.
                                                new timing belt, timing ok
                                                new ignition coil, new cables and sparkplugs
                                                new distributor
                                                double 44 carbs which can breath freely
                                                4-2-1 exhaust manifold

HEEEEEEEELP
Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike -as you are already a mechanic Iguess youve checked this.
It sounds like from what you describe as flames and banging that the distibutor drive is 180 degrees out.Is it a cam or block dizzy ?
First Id check timing belt is correctly on i.e. all marks aligned correctly.
Id double check by removing the cam covers and looking at the cam lobes on cylinder one being on compression stage and crank pulley on or near TDC.
Then you can pull off the dizzy cap and check the rotor arm is at or near cylinder 1 plug lead ready to fire. I would then turn the engine over by hand and check the rotor moves round freely and aligns correctly in the right firing order as the cam lobes all come into position on their compression stroke .
You are obviously getting ignition hence the flashbacks you are getting .
Failing that All that is  left is either a very weak air fuel mix or very bad valve seats across most or all of the cylinders

Hope this helps

Curt

As I recall when the front cam wheels and crank are all in alignment the fiat twin cams fire up no 4 cylinder first so you want the rotor in the distributor pointing at no 4

Cant remember that far back  ::)
But a quick look at the cam lobes will tell you which cylinder should be firing

Yes that's right and I can confirm that if you don't do that you can burn your rather expensive ITG filter with the flames that come out of the carburettor!  :o I still have the burnt filter somewhere if you want proof  ;D :-[ :-\   And I can still hear Simon saying "I told you so..."  ;) ;D

As Curt said above, it sounds to me that your problem is distributor out by 180 degrees. With the static timing marks on camwheels and crankshaft all lined up the rotor arm should be pointing at the number 4 cylinder HT wire.

ha a similar problem on my twincam lada last year...
turned out to be a faulty ignition coil.
also, electronic ignition unit (comutator or whatever you call it in your part of the world) could be faulty.

if you have a source of LPG or ACETYLENE you can bypass carburetors and feed the gas directly tru the carb into the engine. helped more than once to eliminate fuel system as a source of the problem.

still, sounds as if you have an electrical problem.

change the coil. preferably take one from a running car for a test to be 100% sure that it's ok.

I dont mean to' teach your grandmother ' as we say but -
 I know you say you changed the cables 1-4 and 2-3 but that wont help if the rotor arm is mid position between two cylinders -The spark will just arc and jump to the nearest contact tower in the distributor cap which could be any cylinder.
For peace of mind and you may already have done so I would physically check that the rotor is smack on with the distributor tower of the correct cylinder.
Another thing maybe is that the rotor has not located correctly on the shaft-had this happen before !
With the popping and banging as you say from either inlet or exhaust it has to be an ignition timing or valve timing problem.Valves are closed for approx 180 degrees of the four stroke cycle-both exhaust and inlet fully closed for 90 degrees of crankshaft revolution on compression stroke-therefore for flames to erupt from inlets or exhaust popping-either ignition is way out of time or there is a major arcing/tracking fault in the distributor cap or LT release side.If all that is OK then it has to be valve timing.
Ignition has to be occuring when either inlet or exhaust valve is open to cause that to happen.I know this is silly but you have definitly got 2 and 3 the right way round ?Once again I would say remove the cam box covers and physically check the cam lobes for timing -maybe the marks are in the wrong place
Good Luck

Curt

Camshaft timimg!
Remember camshafts are timed in No: 4 @ TDS on a Fiat TC.
If you have the original camshaft pulleys you cant really go wrong, however if you have aftermarket vernia pulleys the chances are that you have timed them in with  No: 1 on TDC and  not No: 4, that will put your timimg 180 degrees out.
Go back to basics and check the timing/camshaft alignment.
Regards
Steve

Posted by: parrish  Posted on: Today at 05:04:04 PM 
Insert Quote 
Camshaft timimg!
Remember camshafts are timed in No: 4 @ TDS on a Fiat TC.
 
Sorry to correct you -Dont you mean TDC  ;D ;D ;D

Just pulling your Leg  ;D ;D

pall, had a same problem, even changed the head too, turned out to be ignition coil in the end. even had a backfire trough carb.

Well if youve checked everything that much and youve changed all the ignition components and carb then it has me stumped as well  :o :o
My next advice would be sticking valves or bad valve seating or broken valve spring or shim bucket jamming or just badly adjusted but youve changed the head as well  :o
It really is a mystery -time for scooby doo  ;D ;D
Will keep thinking -but Im stumped -let us know how it goes on  ;)

Gut instinct still says timing though  ;)

Just a silly thought -when you replaced the head were the manifolds already on it -I know of people that have covered the inlet ports with tape to stop dirt ingress and not removed the tape before putting the manifolds on  ::) ::)

After reading through this thread, I'm voting for a weak spark. If the cam timing is correct, and the ignition is not 180 deg out, with enough fuel it should at least fire a couple of times on a squirt from the accelerator pump. I'd be checking cam timing and applying a dab of white paint on the crank and cam pulleys so I could check with a timing light while cranking. With a timing light on number 4 plug lead I'd be checking crank and cam timing, if the spark is +15-0deg from TDC on the crank it should run, if not I'd be suspect of the quality of spark at the plug.

Just had another thought-some dizzys had a shear pin in the drive dog/gear.
If the pin does shear than even though the rotor shaft may be seen to turning over by hand -friction on the shaft is all that is turning it -when cranking they can slip to another position.

when you say checked - have you physically taken the cam box covers and dizzy cap off and turned the engine by hand looking at the cam lobes for firing positions and also physically checked TDC by taking a plug out and ' feeling ' the cylinder is there ? I know its a pain but marks and pulleys can lie -mechanical positions cant! It still says timing- Have you ran a compression test by the way ??
Another thought-you say that you changed all the ignition components-and it still wont go - have you checked the low voltage side -ground and feed to the coil when cranking over - it may have an intermittent power feed or too low a voltage when cranking
this could cause the problem -a volt meter would show this up

Are you getting  spark
(put spark plug on an earthed part of engine and turn the engine on the starter and watch for spark)
If no spark add 12 volts direct to coil and do the same again.
If you are getting spark loosen the distributor nut and get some one to start the engine while you swing the distributor if the thing coughs/spits/farts its igniting the fuel at the wrong time you then have a timing problem.

My bet is the distributor is out, (done this loads of times myself)

Also a thing i use to diagnose fuel problems is a tin of easy start.

Are you sure your starter motor is turning in the right direction?

So if youve checked everything again and again-and the head,ignition components and carb has been tested and guaranteed to work on another engine-and you are absolutley sure - then it has to be something in the car your working on i.e. electrical feeds-i presume youve thrown some neat fuel down its throat and tried it and checked all the electrical feeds-a compression test has shown good compression. All the timing is correct for cams and dizzy -so why will this animal not start ?? All i can now think of as this is a different car-is that -and this is a very long shot -that the exhaust has a blockage somewhere that is causing huge back pressure on starting.Back pressure can cause spitting out of the carbs and neat fuel gathering at the choke point can cause the popping in the pipe-bit like the old banana trick -But that really is grabbing for straws !

electrics and only electrics.

So here we have a car that started-then was difficult to start -then gave up all together-in other words a problem that has crept on slowly over time and now whatever the problem is has completely failed.The only thing that fails over time is capacitance in electronic devices i,e, capacitors themselves in a circuit (electronic ignition ) or the evil one corrosion !!
We all know this problem with the main fuse box and earthing points on a 131-again i guess youve checked but who knows ! have you wired the coil on directly and removed any suppressors in the circuit ?As you know the ignition barrel itself can give lots of problems and the high feed from the starter solenoid (if fitted). Also i would earth the coil directly to the battery as well for testing purposes-or do you physically see a strong spark ?
Errm just thought -you have put fresh fuel in this havent you ?
Wish I was there with you to sort this out - i love a challenge

Just cos you hear or see a flash from the exhaust doesnt rule out the blockage

loosen the manifold or downpipes to be sure but keep an extinguisher handy  ;D ;D If at first you dont suceed try try again  ;D ;D

Keep in touch Mike - this one is really making my pants itch as well  ;D ;D ;D

The blocked exhaust suggestion is not such a far fetched idea. I saw a Mercedes once that wouldn't run and it turned out it was a blocked exhaust. Apparently the baffles in the rear  silencer had collapsed and were blocking the exhaust. This is unlikely to happen with a Fiat straight-through exhaust silencer but I suppose it could happen.

Especially if someone has stuffed a banana up the tailpipe  ;D ;D

Oh the tricks of years gone by-does anyone still do this  ;D ;D

I thought it was potatoes that got shoved up exhaust pipes  ;D ;D ;D ;D

take a piece of wire and make a direct connection between battery  - (negative) and ignition unit -
also, take a thick wire and make a direct ground between engine head and - on the battery

don't get me wrong, i'm just trying to pass on my experience on the simillar problem.
i swapped the engine in my car, put on it intake, carb and ignition that was in the car before swap and when i fired it up it would just backfire trough carb. since i run bi-fuel system (petrol and LPG) i tried both fuels and had the same simptoms. this directed me to electrics as the source of a problem. i checked for spark - it was there. i swapped the electronic ignition unit for a new one and nothing. swapped sparkplugs and cables - nothing. swapped distributor for a new one - nothing. swapped whole engine head for one from engine that i took out of the car - nothing. went to a shop and bought a new ignition coil and installed it - nothing. took ignition coil from a friends yugo that he drove that day and thamn thing fired up instantly.

Re the distributor, is it a marelli electronic ignition type as the insulation on the two wires that go to the pickup inside the distributor are usually perished with age and they can short and misfire but having said that I have seen these really bad but they still run but misfire.

Any further forward with this  ???  ;D

Hi Curt,

No, I'm afraid. Been to busy with my company. Couldn't find the time yet. Next to that I had to fix my Mercedes 280 TE for a tour here in my hometown.
Perhaps next week. I'll keep you informed.

Well there I was, giving it another go today. Changed coil again...no firing. Exchanged cables...nothing. Took a spark plug out and started the engine...beautiful sparks but no firing of the engine. Checked if piston 1 was in upper position...it was.
So-o-o-o, new suggestions, please.

is the fuel getting to the cylinders?
tryed with another carb?

Carbs are perfect and yes, fuel gets to cylinders. Timing is good, sparks are good, fuel is good. But still no firing. And that after being a Fiat mechanic for over 25 years.

tdc turn dizzy to fire on no 4 not no 1

ok, lets recap:
timing is ok
spark is there, it's not weak (not orange spark but strong blue)
fuel is there - too much or too little fuel? fuel/air mix correct?
starter is turning fast? if slow that might be a problem.

have you measured compression? do all cylinders get at least 8-9 bar?
have you tried to bolt on manifold with carb from another running engine? perhaps mixture is wrong?

couple weaks ago i changed piston rings in a lada. wouldn't start afterwards no matter what. hooked it to another car and  towed and it started immediately and running fine ever since...

Tried it, check it, changed it :-\ Towed the car three blocks...nothing.
The list untill this far:

New battery
New starter motor
New coil(s)
New cables
New sparkplugs
New carbs
New cylinder head
New timing belt
Even a new ignition switch
Checked valves
Checked compression (around 9)
Checked pistons
Checked timing and checked it again and again
Checked ignition timing and again and again
Checked all wiring in engine bay
Checked fuel

It's giving me a headache. All of my 131 experience for more then 25 years right out the window.

only thing left to do is change to a single carb manifold, pour some petrol straight down the carb and giving it a try

I have non in stock. Only the set of carbs that were first mounted on the engine. But when I use the throttle fuel is injected, so that's not the problem either.
Really, the engine gets fuel and a nice spark at the right time, but there is not even a moment of firing at all. Not even during towing.
I'm not kidding. This is a serious dilemma. I wanted to take the car for a tour drive which is every year in my hometown. It was last week...perhaps next year...

there's nothing i can do but to thow in ideas like this...
wish i could lay my hands on it. troubleshooting is my favourite game.

try removing sparkplugs amd injecting a little bit of oil into each cylinder. crank it couple times and then put sparks back in and try again. that should boost compression for a short while.

also it might be worth a try to dissconnect fuel line and inject start spray while cranking. any aerosol will do, even deodorant.

Djape,

I poured some fuel directly into the carbs. Left me with nice clean pistons... :D :D :D. But using the throttle already means fuel injection.
A few minutes ago I connected the coil directly to the battery...didn't work out.

am i stupid or what? how can it be?
there's spark + fuel + compression = fire should be result. what are we missing??

Seeing as things are looking desperate as well as perplexing .....maybe a suggestion from a non mechanic might be of some little use. My Super failed to start last year and after exhausting mechanical issues the mechanic called in a sparky who diagnosed a faulty ignition switch. A new switch later and as is well.

Now I know you have listed a replacement ignition switch amongst the list of things tried...but is it possible that the new switch is faulty too..? Can you test it? In fact that theory could apply to more than one solution tried to date... ???

Good luck....

Pour some of the fuel on the floor and see if it burns. Not health and safety concious but if the fuel don't burn the car won't run.

Djape,

Then I would be stupid too...for four years then. I must be missing a minor little thing here. I build and rebuild a lot of engines through the years and they always fired. I'm possitive that when I make my Abarth complete it will fire at the end. Perhaps sooner then the Racing.
Yes it gets fuel, and yes it gets spark at the right time. All seems to be right.

Kevin, I tried 4 ignition switches. No result. I tried 3 coils, no result. Exchanged sparkplugs, cables, everything I have in stock, but nothing works.

Everything I know, everything I have concerning parts, I tried. And it's such a beautiful yet simple system. The engine just has to go. It's stupid and it's making me very angry.Can you understand? If there's somebody here in Holland who knows something about the 131 it's me...and I can't get it to fire...g..........d

Keep throwing in suggestions. How silly they may seem. I don't care. I'll try anything together with my own thoughts. At the end it has to fire. And when this happens i'll throw a party and you lot are all invited... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Try earthing the engine

Already have. Checked it today again. Thanks

Have you tried a new Dizzy cap and rotor arm. I had one that although looked a strong spark when cranking it over with a plug on the end of a lead.  When all together did not have a good spark to start because there was a spark track inside the cap. When you looked in the cap it looked ok. Drove me nuts at the time.

I also had one that would not run with all 4 leads connected but would run with number 3 off every time I put number 3 on it would not start.

Thanks, I checked that as well. But, i will do that again. Perhaps I missed something. However dizzy and cap were taken from the other engine which always fired immediately. But i will check again.

These things are set to drive you nuts. It doesnt matter how much experience you have there will be one problem that will come along and catch you out.

Have you tried cranking the engine over and at the same time stick 24 volts through it for a brief time? I wouldnt do it on a modern car with an ecu bused tro t an old 131 with basic electrics used to be ok. I t will make the starter spin faster and the spark stronger.

I don't have the possibility to do so. I towed the car for three blocks with high speed to see if it would fire. So I didn't have to use the starter motor which could use a lot of volts. But didn't work.

If its getting air,fuel and spark it must be out of time
Did you try spraying easy start in to the air intake whilst cranking like i suggested before
if it kicks in to life its a fuel problem.
How do you know its getting fuel,are the plugs wet
Did you time the car on no 4 piston
did you swing the distributor whilst cranking to move the timing
did you time the distributor 180 degrees the other way.

Yes, tried it all. Spark is fine, fuel is there (all pistons are very clean washed by the fuel). It hasn't "Kicked"in 4 years now except for 30 cm flames from the carbs and something the same from the exhaust.
Turned ignition 360 degrees, tried switching cables 1-4, 2-3. Exchanged every part, again and again. Checked earth of engine and ignition. Checked timing over and over. There is a complete cylinder head with all components taken from an engine that always would fire immediately. From the carbs al the way to the other side like exhaust and ignition. Nothing works.

hi
can you chek the starter if he is working in the correct side for the flywheel or he is working in  the  ronge side

Thanks, but it's on the right side of the engine. No, I mean the left... ;D Starter is perfect.

I still vote spark! If it's got fuel in the cylinders the only thing missing is something to light it up. Have you done a compression test?

1 - what cam lift and durration for in and ex cam?

2 - what (in degrees) is valve open and close event for in and ex cam.?

now what have you set up to?

i have simular problems with my father have trevi volumex and 50 mm delorto carburater with alquati cams and we time badly but i was just 15 so learning no bent valve was lucky  :D

suljo m

Yes, I did. Two times. Look back at this topic to see what's already done. I need something small, out of the ordinary. It must be something that we (and especially me) overlook.

Suljo m,

Because of bigger valves I have lift inlet 35 and outlet 40. That shouldn't be a problem. Bhp around 160 or so, together with the twin carburetors, adjustable cam rods, and exhaust.

sorry freind i have read all and i have work many fiat t cam, spark and fuel is waste if timing wrong.

if high compresion this may be blow out spark on compresion stroke need diferent plugs.

valve clearance for hi lift cams?

what cams are used i have specifcation for most cam at home  ;)

i garantee i will find why it do not start in 30 mins if i see engine, i promise you this, really i need to do my checks with my tools  ;) you just buy me plenty strong beer and meat when i fix! ;D

where are you friend  ;)
suljo m

what is adjustable cam rod  ???

That's the toothed round thing on the end of the the cam. It's driven by the belt.

Timing isn't wrong. Tried all positions of distributor. Somewhere between flames from carburetors and from exhaust there should be a point the engine fires. But it just won't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know. I'm a mechanic for 25 years!!!

OH you mean CAM PULLEY or if adjustable is a VERNIER PULEY? this is how i call it i never hear of adjustable cam rod ! !  ;D



Please write every part thats is NOT STANDARD fiat t cam and we will find foult.
thanks freind we will fix her  :) ;D
suljo m

Sorry, for my english isn't always that good :) ;)
Here we go:
Twin 44 Weber carburetors on 125 inlet manifold.
Lancia cylinder head with bigger valves
Adjustable pulleys! ;D ;D ;D
Inlet cam 131 Racing, outlet 132 with electronic distributor 
Standard outletmanifold (yet) standard exhaust (for looks)

you say first race cam and now Inlet cam 131 Racing, outlet 132 with electronic distributor   
what cams is fit and is inlet and exhoust right no mix up  ???

and you say 4,2,1 ex manifold then say cast ?? standard?? which is it freind ???
suljo m

You're right. It's a difficult story. Inlet cam is from 131 Sport but not the original. It's modified. Same counts for outlet cam. Trust me on this one. They are both good for about extra 30 bhp together with the lifting of bigger valves. But that's not the problem.
The problem is in the spark, wrong time, not big enough, anything. I don't know.

At this moment I changed the exhaust manifold back to standard. I'm trying anything to get the engine running. :-\

ok but we need real informations and set ups to help
actually i tell you the truth, to fix it you need to see it, its crazy try to fix a engine on internet you needs to be with is in real life knows what i mean  ;) speculations never can fix like ill persons need to see doctor no check forum good luck!  8)
suljo m

There I was tonight, giving it another go. Exchanged two coils. O yes, coughing from the carburetors and big blasts from the tailpipe... Somewhere in between there should be a firing point. Nothing again.
But I noticed, while trying to start the engine, that the ground cable from the battery gets very hot. So I took a piece of sandpaper and cleared the connection points. Didn't help. Then it got to dark to continue.

ground the engine directly from the head to battery negative

From the head? What do you mean?

take a big fat piece of wire and connect the nearest part of the engine directly to battery. shortest way should be from one of exaust manifold studs.

What good would that do? Ground cable is fine and it's an original one. And since I cleared the connections again tonight I know it works fine. I'm going to have another look at the starter motor for I think this is the problem of the wire getting hot. I don't think this has anything to do with the engine not firing. Please state if you think otherwise. I'm staying open for suggestions.
Thanks,

Mike

Are  we sure the actual cam timing or the cam profiles are ok? With all the back firing it may be the cams to piston is not where it needs to be. The cam timing marks may line up but the lobes may be opening the valves in the wrong place

I took the complete head from another engine which always fired immediately without moving, removing or adjusting the cams. They're alright. Thanks

Is the compression ratio ok?

Yes, it's about 8.9

May be fit a standard twin choke carb to see if it will fire with that?

Like I said previously in this topic, I don't have one. Only the twins that came off the original head.

Im not being funny but it would be quicker to drop in antother TC engine if you dont get to the bottom of this problem.
That is if you have one spare.

i don't think that it has something to do with engine not starting but it's one of electrical problems that's common on all old cars

106usj,

What good will it do to build in another engine? It's just the engine-block. It's the topside which gives me headaches.

Pedja,

I know of the electrical problems all too well. This car has none except for the ground cable getting hot.

it takes only a few simple things to make an engine run...
fuel.correct ratio.... you say its OK
spark ....you say its OK
air..... you say its OK
compression ....you say its OK
correct timing ...you say its OK

 so which one is not OK as it has to be one of these

 there is nothing else ????????????????????

My thoughts exactly. Everything is checked, adjusted, changed and changed, adjusted and checked again. This G.dd..n engine should fire. But it just won't.
Tomorrow I will spend another few hours on it, just to get some life from it. I'd rather spend he time with my Abarth or my second Abarth, but I want to get it running. After 5 years I really want to drive a 131 again. :'(

Here I am again, trying and trying over and over for 4 hours. Fitted brand new spark plugs, cables, ignition cap. Adjusted contacts in ignition (smaller gap).Started with choke on, choke off. Even unbolted the exhaust. Blasts from carbs and exhaust but no life in between.
I'm getting desperate here, doubting myself. Why won't this engine fire?

did you change the electronic ignition unit (comutator or whatever it is called in your part of the world)?

If you mean the part in the ignition unit with the white cable, i did.

Your fuel has lost it's sparkle. Get new fuel as the aromatic VOC's that give fuel it's sparkle have evaporated. The car has not run in four years you say yes ?

New fuel, bled it through all the way, give her a go and she should cough into life, and don't be surprised if the car needs new plugs again, as rotten old fuel destroys spark plugs, even brand new ones..

OK here we go again  ???  ???
Its a constant problem -everything works but it doesnt start.
Blowback thru carbs and exhaust MUST mean its firing with the valves open-thats given.You have good compression -therefore the valves must be closing correctly or you would have little or no compression.
The only thing that can possibly be wrong is the ignition timing from the distributor.If say for instance the pulleys were wrong on the cams the valves would have smashed by now or would they - theres a thought.
Anyway if you cannot adjust the timing to get it to fire correctly the distributor must be wrong or the gear is wrong on the distributor i.e. the distributor is turning slower or faster than the engine.Do you have a strobe light to check the ignition timing is static when cranking over - just throwing more in the pot for you.Failing that lift the cap off mark a position for tdc and crank it over and see if the rotor is coming back to its normal position.You could do the same with the cams check the lobe position at tdc turn it over and see if there creeping from tdc wouldnt be the first time a 1 tooth less pulley was put on and caused things to turn slower than they should.

Are there any signs of floating ("verzuipen"in dutch) the engine after trying to start for a longer time?
(Wet plugs..) if not, did you check the fuel pump? maybe petrol supply is not continously due to a bad fuel pump..?
(I know, it doesn't really explain the back fire issue)
If it is not belt timing or fuel related I guess it must be something with the ignition.
is this electronic or with the old fasion breaker points?

Fuel is almost new. Took it from the same car which provided all the parts on top of the engine block. The only thing I didn't swap is the block. And now I've changed the exhaust back to standard. Every other part is either new or taken from the donor car. Like I said, that one always fired. Even in the past,after 3 years when it was left alone in my garage.
So, fuel is there and the spark is in time. Belt timing is ok, carburetors are the best, ignition is like new and it's on time.
Indeed, there is nothing else.
So why does it fire back in the carburetors and when I turn the ignition too far, in the exhaust? Why is there nothing in between? No life sign whatsoever.
 

ples .. chek the starter ples your strarter working in the rong side that couse a bake fire in the carberator ..

Discussed the starter motor already. It's still the original one and it turns the right way. Thanks

Now were there -got to go out -back later -with a theory

Its called lack of oxygen to fire in the cylinders-when the valves are semi open more air is allowed in and combustion occurs -this combustion is a weak air/fuel mix hence the 'banging' from carb or exhaust - a weak mixture is providing this effect- you have a leak on the induction side -brake servo etc. or gaskets .
block off all vac intakes from the carb side -i.e. brake servo -filter trails -dizzy if it has one -make it suck everything through the carbs- and see how it goes .If as you say everything else is 100% it must be the problem -Or if the cars insured -Torch it  ;D ;D

Just kidding -really  ;D

Welll...I thought of that one...torching I mean :D But I can't depart from it. Don't know why. Could be because it's a 131. ;)
The coughing from the carburetors and the farting ;) :D from the exhaust only occurs when I turn the ignition too far. In between there's the real ignition point.
I put new gaskets between the carbs, inlet manifold and cylinder head after cleaning all surfaces. I know thats important after being a mechanic for all those years.
The brake servo is only connected to one cylinder so it should fire from at least 3 others. Even when spark plugs or cables are broken it should fire from the others. 1 cylinder should show life or maybe 2. But nothing happens in the firing area. That's what makes it so strange.
Even if the ignition is too late the engine should fire. It would run bad but it would.

Is the ignition static on turn over ?? have you checked with a strobe light -just asking to rule out other possibilitys.As you say one way it coughs-other way it farts-so ignition must be right. And cams are right and compression is right -only fueling is left . Have you tried throwing neat new fuel down the throats ?
We are missing something simple -i would still block off the brake servo tho.and all vac lines from the carbs/manifolds. It doesnt make any sense -how far are you from schipol airport  ;D ;D

hello change the electonic dizzy and recheck the timing again when piston 1 is up and the timing pulleys are with the mark

I had some spare moments tonight so I decided to try again.
Changed coil again, changed 2 cables, changed dizzy again, even try a boost with pure alcohol in the carbs. Still nothing.
Then I thought: what the h..l, let's change cables 1-4 and 2-3 again. And whatta you know? Life!!! A hick up. Turned the dizzy and the engine fired! Not smoothly, but it runs.
Set ignition point to 10 degrees and it was already better. What a lovely noise from the four trumpets after 4 years of nothing.
Total score: 3 coils apparently broken, 3 dizzy's apparently broken and a lot of cables not doing what they're supposed to do. And last but not least 4!!!!! ignition caps which seem to have the numbers wrong. Cos' 1 is 4 now and 2 is 3. But I don't care.
Tomorrow I'll sort the cables out and will adjust the carburetors for it doesn't run smoothly. Didn't stop me from driving around the block. It's runs terribly with an engine that's not right yet and with brakes which haven't done anything the last four years....but, what a ride!!!

AAAH, I am so happy I forget to thank everybody for their support. Thanks guys! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Damn- There goes my visit to Holland  ;D ;D
Take the dizzy out out - turn end gear180 degrees-put back in -change leads round - and presto -the right numbers on the right leads
Got there in the end - never trust marks and numbers -or coils-or caps-or anything else  ;D ;D
I bet your one happy bunny  ;D ;D

Cheers

Curt

Hi Curt,

Man, I'm so happy. Yes, tomorrow I shall take the dizzy out and turn it around. Then adjust the carburetors for smooth running. After that  a look at the brakes, the heater motor and fix the roof cloth. It's come loose.
Thanks.

He Mike, cogratulations!
These hard to find problems are always obvious and easy to explain...
but only after they are  found and solved.
that's the beauty of trouble shooting, I guess.
If any plans to drive her to nijmegen, drop by

cheers henk

Thanks Henk,

Maybe I will after I'm finished with the car. Need a lot to do. And it's not even registered yet, no plates. First setting the engine right, then brakes and electronics, fix the roof cloth. But that's all fine cause now I have a running car finally. Let's hope it still runs tomorrow... ;)

Thats good. the most simple and stupid things can catch you out. doesn't matter how good you are

nice!
you owe me a beer! i told you it was electrical fault.

Good for you Mike... Enjoy your car now...

Well...I can't right now. Due to some problems I needed to store the car elsewhere. All my cars. But, when all comes to ease, I will certainly start working on the car again and get it on the road for at least 10 years. Can't wait.........

Here i have a question to you all. Should i build in a roll cage? I have one original which i can bolt in. It's originally from my replica, but i will build me a copy of a group 4 cage for that one.

you should.
last year a bicycle rider slammed into my lada when i was doing 20, and he was doing around 35kph. believe me, i whish i had a roll cage. i doubt that 131's roof is any stronger
(http://s4.postimage.org/119s_9.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/3m9bh7eck/)

Wow! That's some nasty damage there. But i don't think that a cage will help in such case. The roof will be dented anyway.  :-\

yes but it wouldn't be caved in and bacwards by 15cm. also, just imagine what would happen if same thing happened at 60kph or 80?

Well, the person on the bike wouldn't survive, i think. And you would have a big bump on the head  ;) :D

yeah, well, this one got lucky, only broke his collar bone and some cuts on legs. on the other side, pretty much no chancefor me to cover my damage, cyclists don't have insurance and this one happened to be 20yrs old student so no income either...

all in all, having a roll cage is not a bad idea. you already have it and it doesn't sound as too much work to install. besides rollovers and bicycle riders, it also provides protection against side impacts and stiffens up the body of a car

You are probably right. But the idea to cut up the upholstery and drill holes in the floor isn't too appealing to me. Besides, it makes the car a bit heavier too.

On the other hand, it looks great and it ensures some extra safety.

Got the old Walter Rohrl back on the road this week for daily use. What a wonderfull experience to drive this one again. After 14 years of storage with only short runs it drives great. The special parts fitted to the engine really do their job. A lovely, loud roaring sound coming from the other side of the dash.

However, i got a little electrical problem. I think it's the grounding somewhere. When i use the indicators they flash really slow. Caressing the brake pedal means the even move slower.
I already checked the main ground cable from the battery, the grounding on the left inner wheel arch, the grounding on the right in the trunk, the one on the right front shocker tower and even the ones inside the interior. Checked fuses and all cables.
I believe there was somebody some time ago with the same problem. What was the sollution?

Mike

I dont have the answer but welcome back to the site Mike - Missed you there for a while.

Good to hear that you have a running 131 again - Just in time for 3MA11!  ;)

Change your rear lights solves it mostly. I had several cars with this problem. Sometimes you can solve it with cleaning every electric part. Good luck.

Hi Kev,

Yes sorry, i have a lot of problems lately. Merriage down, no work or home. No money. Life's a bitch sometimes. My wife's a bitch all the time  ;)
So it's back behind the wheel of a lorry for me now. Long days and nights. Which means i have little spare time. But i'll be back.
There's light at the end of the this dark tunnel and i'm driving through it in my Sport... :D

Albert,

The whole units or just the bulbs?
Thanks.

Whole unit

...but i need those for my Abarth  :-[ :'(........... ;) :D

Just try them!

I have no reach of them yet. All parts are scattered all over different locations... Long story. But it'll be allright. Thanks Albert  :)

good luck, otherwise you come and we try units from me.

Oh, that may be a solution. I'll get back to you. :)

Before changing the whole units i thought it was an idea to check grounding, check and clean the old units up or even try smaller bulbs. Doesn't help. Now, what is it that makes the indicators go slow and even slower when using the brake lights?

So, after some time it's me again. Sometimes life takes a terrible turn. For me it turned out to lose about everything i worked for over 30 years. Still going through a hard time. To keep fuel consumption low i bought a 1600 CL for daily use.
I know it's not the best times now for selling a 131 but i have no choice. And i know i should probably add a topic in the "For sale" list but since i have no use of a computer my own i can only continue this topic. Here goes:

131 Sport Walter Rohrl edition for sale.

For more information and pictures see previous adds. For everything else send me a pm. But only if you're interested in buying an almost perfect Sport.


Thanks,

Mike

Sorry if you have to sell a car that you want to keep. I would put an ad with full details and photos in the for sale section but also try ebay and other sources. Don't forget other types of media such as magazines etc. Not everybody uses the internet.....