131mirafiori forum

Hi all,

My 131 have starting problems. It's actually the starter. It's getting very difficult to engage it. Could it be because the battery being old or could it be that the starter is of the type that requires high battery performance. Lead is getting more expensive in Malaysia, so could there be a solution where the 131 could use small performance batteries, maybe with a modification to smaller power requirement starters? Price of batteries are becoming dearer than a starter change.

I am faced with cooling performance. Here in Malaysia, the daytime tempretures could get rather high especially during traffic jams, increasing the risk of engine failures if one's cooling systems is not up to mark. Might a fan switch with a lower operating prompt be the answer? If so what tempreture setting should I change to.

What type of engine is in your 131? The Fiat Twin Cam engines as fitted to the 131 require high torque to spin them fast enough to start so the starter motors are 1.6KW! Therefore also need powerful batteries to provide the cranking current. A smaller started motor will not be up to the job and a smaller battery will not supply sufficient current for starting. I am sure there are places in Malaysia that can refurbish your 131 starter motor.

I had a similar starting problem and I suspected the starter motor. My suspicions were correct but the problem was that the starter motor was simply coming apart! Have a look at previous posts here:
http://131mirafiori.com/smf/index.php?topic=460.0
and here:
http://131mirafiori.com/smf/index.php?topic=472.msg2529#msg2529

Changing the temperature at which the cooling fan starts will not eliminate overheating problems. The fan normally starts at the correct temperature and it should not rise beyond that if the cooling system is working fine. If the temperature continues to rise after the fan starts, then probably your radiator is not efficient enough. Try flushing the radiator with plenty of clean water to remove any sludge and if that doesn't improve matters replace the radiator.

Thank you Thotos,
My radiator had the service, but following your logic that the fan switch will only work at the required temperature, I will make sure that the fanswitch works properly.

As regards the starting power requirement of 1.6kw, well I thank you too. That reduces the spectrum by which I need to search a solution for my starting problem. What would you suggest if my engine is a SOHC 1.6CL, would a smaller 124 starter suffice? Mind you I am not about to make changes purely for performance or sticking to `originality' as in OEM. My considerations are purely economics. As I said earlier, a starter change is cheaper than a big battery change. My son-in-law's Toyota VIOS 1.5l have a tiny battery as original OEM.

The non-twin cam engines have lower power starter motors as low as 0.8KW for the OHV engines. I don't know about the SOHC engines but as a newer design I would expect them to have a lower power starter motor. Older engines (like the 124) are likely to have larger starter motors than a modern engine. Most Japanese cars have very small starter motors (as low as 300W!) as the engines are easy to turn and start and hence have very small batteries.

The other thing about modern starters is that they have reduction gear and spin very fast. by reducing speed you get a good torque and there is no need for big battery. I have now in my 2.0l 131 a starter from fiat croma and it works perfectly, before that i was using few different fat 131,132 starters and i always got a lot of problems(the worst nightmare was then i left the road on special stage and could not start the car with overheated starter-16v head).
THe other option might be Lada niva starter with reduction gear. new cost around 100-130euro and works perfectly but i used it with fiat 124(small ribbed case) dogbox that i have with lada belhousing(after small mods it fits 2.0l engine-hydraulic clutch and flywheel from lada are required). I do not know if it helps but maybe lada starter is the same as fiat 131 ohc.

I am new to Fiat Engines. Is it true that 131 engines, the older ones are still push-rod design. I was under the impression it was a SOHC due to the use of timing belts. If so, is this one of the reason for the higher starting power requirement. I had the alternator changed to a Japanese unit, 65amp. Could this add to my starting problems apart from the smaller battery size.

How about a Japanese 2.0l starter, would these provide sufficient power to a 1.6CL engine like in my 131. 

If not, it looks like I have no other option other than a bigger, costlier battery. I've dismantled the starter, got to reassemble it. Thought I could save the little trip to the bank.

The first generation 1600 engines fitted to the 131S and later the CL are OHV (i.e. pushrod) engines. These have an 800W starter motor. Normally they are fitted with a 45A alternator except for the automatic versions or ones fitted with air conditioning which should have a 65A alternator. I would have thought that fitting a Japanese starter motor will be more trouble and expense than refurbishing the original and fitting a descent standard battery. 

Thanks Thotos, but really my obsession for Japanese is more economics than faith. In Malaysia, the supply of Japanese parts and equipment is the religion. If I were to live in Rome, I'll roam like Romans do. I know how much more you know about 131s. I am only trying to survive here.

I read about the carbs over in another thread. The side draft ones and the single plane manifold thingy. It does draw my interest though. But can those improvements make FIATCAN enjoy his Sundays? I am sure they can, but over here as I said the religion is Japanese and they determine whether we'll enjoy our Sundays.

And Sundays are the reason why I need to settle my starting problems. Back to this. Theoratically, a higher rated set of alternator should easily store adequate electrical charge in a small battery which in turn will be adequate to power up a larger Japanese starter.

I've done that to my VW Transporter with success, a Honda starter to a 2.0l flat-four VW and oops, the battery was a larger unit.

I get your point. I suppose the phrase "necessity is the mother of invention" is very apt here.

An alternator with higher output will not put any more power into a battery than a smaller alternator; it will simply top up the battery faster. A battery can only hold its nominated charge and no more. It's just like filling a glass of water, there's only a certain amount of water a glass can hold and a larger tap (faucet  for our American friends) will simply fill it up faster.

What is important in a battery with regards to starting is the cranking current. That's the amount of "power" the battery will deliver to the starter motor to start the car. A large battery might have a large capacity so will hold a lot of charge but might still be unable to deliver a high cranking current. On the other hand, a small battery will have a lower charge capacity but still be able to deliver a very high current for starting the car.

on the cooling issue this stuffhttp://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp  really works at helping lower the temp. By up to 15 degrees I think!

January5159,
pls post photos of the engine bay of your CL, we have to see your current set up,
maybe could help.

I've recently discovered that over in KL APM makes Japanese starters for 131 Fiat. For under RM200 one can get a Japanese starter which do not strain the battery and so N60s battery can also be fitted to do the job just as well. I've almost given up on the Japanese starters. But I've recently bought a Taiwan starter relay to replace the relay function to my original Italian starter. It's supposed to relay 30 amps to the motor to crank the engine. What I am not certain is whether there will be synchornisation problems like the motor turning before the solenoid pushes the starting gears out to the flywheel.

Wish me luck.

What's that in real money?  ??? (is that what RM stands for? Real Money  ;D )


Do you mean the solenoid that sits on top of the starter?
Normally, the motor starts turning after the solenoid has pushed the gear forward as the power to the motor is provided by the solenoid which only makes contact once it's moved the gear forward.

 RM can also means Rob Money, Theo .. :D :D ;D ;D? taiwan starter solenoid at 200 m'sian ringgit look like supplier already rob january's money? ??? :D ;D ;D ( just joking)..

Well I forgot to mention that upon testing I found out that the existing solenoid works well to push the starting gears out to the flywheel. But this solenoid fail to allow enough electrical contact to its relay to activate the main starter motor. So every crank at the ignition keys will only provide one click i.e the solenoid pushing the starter gears out.

I bought a starter relay for RM15 not RM200. Again my question, will the main starter motor turn before the existing solenoid pushes the starter gears out? If so would it make a crunching noise. This set-up is almost similar to those found in classic Minis, except that those Minis uses centrifugal force to push the starting gears out to the flywheel.

The starter solenoid serves 2 purposes, as it pulls in, the starter pinion is pushed out to the flywheel. When it pulls all the way in it acts as a high current switch, providing a current path to the starter motor windings. The contacts often end up being a high resistance to the starter current due to arcing. So the pinion will engage on the flywheel but sufficient current doesn't get through to the winding, causing the motor to turn slowly or not at all.

That was my problem, there was enough current to push the starting gears out but the connections at the `relay' function wasn't enough to even light-up a simple test lamp, much less the motor circuit-windings.

I have yet to do a dry-run. The batteries cost so much. With a separate starting relay turning the motor earlier, prevent the starting gears from locking into position and turning the flywheel?

Baja131, my pictures ;

Baja131, more;

Baja 131, rear and front elevation;

Now have to throw my 2 cents in as the one question that was not asked are these emission control engines as they would be lower compression and hence need a lower wattage motor. The other thing not covered is the fact it is only when hot as the engine could be thightening up due to heat seizure or incorrect size pistons as I have seen this many a time as the starter is in a very open and cool running engine bay. ;D ;D ;D

January, I'll give you some tips on my headlight cover. My headlight cover was earlier blurred due to ageing when I bought the car, and 1 pc dropped when I run over humps  :o  :D

So I cut a 6 mm thick acrylic sheet and screwed that to the flange of the reflector.
I mod it to look like a current model cars with clear lens . . it looks shiny man !!  ;D ;D
No worries about stone chips or dropping off ..

Now I have transferred these to another spare car and replaced that with 4 round lights, I still love 4 round headlights on 131 ???  ;)

Your clear acrylic lenses might look cool and shiny but they'll certainly be illegal in the UK and (at least most of) Europe. The headlamp lenses give the beam a "pattern" which is a legal requirement. Modern cars with clear lenses use shaped reflectors to achieve the required pattern. But I suppose legal requirements in your part of the world are not so strict? 

Theo,Don't be jealous :-[

You're right Theo, the beam gives a spot pattern  >:(  so I have to install a pair of driving lights to spread the beam  ;D .
The authorities are more concerned of those white/blue HID bulbs nowadays, those are too bright that disturb the oncoming traffic especially when the car is heavily loaded at the rear.

So for this "latest invention of acrylic lens"   8) ;D, I think they are not too worried .. hopefully  ;)  ;D ;D

Now the car is with round lights  ;)

theredx19; thanks for the info. now I know why the need for higher battery power in Fiat cars in general. I suppose the Japanese cars have lower compression.

Baja141; I had the opportunity to buy a set of 4-round lights but one of the has a cracked lens. So I opted not to buy them. The round lamps make the car look sportier.

Baja141 : I'd like to suggest that should one can't find the original 4 round lamps set, one should opt for a set of Perodua Kenari lamps. They are in abundance at the scrap-yards. The Kenari lamp cluster are closer together as the inner smaller lamp crouch into the outer lamp. 

I'm having starter problems too,
and I'm on my second starter in the last week...

She clicks but won't turn the engine,
but 1 time in 10 she goes straight in 
and starts up perfectly normally.

The solenoid on the original starter was filthy,
and upon fitting a "supposed" re-conditioned one,
the same antics have re-appeared.

Is there any chance it is an anomloy of the Fiat ignition switch
or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Is there any fluid I could clean the solenoid with.

Any industrial or good automotive electricians on this forum ?

and another one for ya, the radiator fan,
which is hardwired around the thermostat to run continusly,
cuts out at some point once the car is ran for a while.

I'm thinking a dud relay, but which one ?
I've had a few epsidoes of the water in the rad boiling up on me, that's why I changed the fan as I thought it was the problem, but it seems I was wrong.

Is there a modern high load one
(with a Motor factors or Halfords or Q.H. part number)
that might do the trick ?

I'd say that if the solenoid clicks then the ignition switch is fine as the ignition switch only feeds power to the solenoid. There's a heavy wire running direct from the battery to the solenoid and it's that wire that feeds power via the solenoid to the starter motor.

So, make sure that wire running from the battery to the back of the solenoid is connected well at both the battery end and the solenoid end.

Once the solenoid clicks, it pushes the starter gear forward and should also give power to the starter for turning. The power is fed via two copper poles inside the solenoid which are 'bridged' by a piece of copper once the solenoid moves the gear forward. It's very common for these contacts inside the solenoid to get dirty and pitted causing bad contacts.

The best electrical contact cleaner on the planet is Amberlube (http://www.stanleysonline.co.uk/product-1820.htm). Believe me it's magical stuff when it comes to cleaning and lubricating electrical contacts. Also available as Survisol but I am not convinced Servisol is as good; I think it might be slightly diluted Amberlube.

You need to make sure the contacts inside the solenoid are good and clean and also need to make sure that the solenoid 'throw' is long enough for the internal contacts to make contact.

Once you are sure your solenoid is working fine, make sure the carbon brushes inside the starter motor are not worn and the motor commutator (where the brushes make contact) is clean (more use for Amberlube).

Good luck. 

That's what I thought, then I changed the starter, and same thing....

Oh well, time to get some contact cleaner.

Thanks Theo.

I am not an electrical engineer so don't take my word for it.
Sometimes its the whole cooling set-up that needs a servicing.
Mine was traced to a faulty tempreature-switch.
Another occasion it was the bypass unit that needs servicing.
Have you looked into the thermostat?

I bypassed that, as I'm aware of how "reliable" they are.
The fan runs all the time, that is if the relay alows it to.

I gave the relay for the fan (though there seems to be two ? )
a tap of a hammer (technical knocking) and it seems to be OK
for the last two 10 mile journeys the car completed.


What's a bypass unit ?


Once the car is moving, the car cools off normally.

I must agree then, its definately an electrical fault. Relays are cheap.

OK, took the re-placement starter off again,
pulled the solenoid apart, and was surprised to see a one piece plunger inside


In the first starter I had taken apart for educational puropses
the plunger had been in two (broken) pieces.

I saw a normal amount of pitting on the contacts,
but cleaned them and smoothed them with emery paper grade800,
turned the contacts 180 degrees to allow the unworn halves
contact the connecting bit of copper in the solenoid,
smoothed the the contact strip with emery paper too,
re-assembled her, and she starts first tick, and a lot faster too.

Fan is still running 100 % of the time, after the technical knocking session last week.

Looks like I will be taking her to Italy for a few weeks on Friday !

Wish me luck.

Ken, did you need to un-solder the solenoid to take it apart. Could one unscrew something instead?

The solenoid end cover containing the contactors comes apart easily,
but I did have to bend the wiring that was soldered to the control terminal.

So for me, no soldering or un-soldering required.

She went back to her old habits, only clicking every time,
but not turning over except for one in 20 attempts to start her..

I checked the earth strap, made no difference,
got a high discharge test done on the battery
which it passed with flying colours.

So as a last resort, I shimmed* the contactor poles in the solenoid end housing
with flat washers machined to fit into the slot.

This brought the poles a lot closer to the connecting bar of copper in the solenoid,
the thinking being that the plunger was worn a bit short, and this was a way to compensate.

She starts about 80 percent of the time now on first tip of the key,
but still needs up to 8 turns of the key to engage the rest of the time.

I'm hoping it will bed in time as mechanically it looks 100 percent.

PS.  FYI Brendan: Shim is NOT a man dressed as a woman*

Your starting problem may be a result of extended solenoid springs. These springs when extended will act to increase the pulling power needed to plunge the plunger and to contact the poles. If you can buy new, fit new ones if you can't solve the problem, then fit a starter relay similar to the ones fittet to classic Minis.

What's your voltage like at the solenoid while cranking? I had a starter motor that continually gave me grief, I had to put a relay in to put full battery voltage to the solenoid when I turned the key. When I replaced the engine I used a different type of starter and the problem was gone.

The voltage would indicate that when the solenoid only clicks,
but the starter does not turn,
that the solenoid is not making the connection. (12.20) Volts

When she starts and turns properly, the voltage momentarily dips a lot lower. (10.25 volts).

Would the classic mini solenoid bolt straight on ??

The classic minis don't use any solenoid. They are electrical starter relays. The top end of 131 solenoid looks like the starter relays. They don't bolt on to replace the existing solenoid plunger function but only serves to replace the relay function which was your problem. You have to think-up of a simple way to bolt it up to the car body nearest to the starter and battery.

OK. The starting problem re-visited.

Instead of allowing all the solenoid voltage and amps to travel through the ignition switch,
I introduced a relay whereby the ignition switch only instructed the relay to allow
batt power provide power to operate the solenoid.

One solenoid, two fuses, and five feet of wire later,
I now have a car that starts everytime as sweet as a Lexus.

i like that one "sweet as a Lexus" or toyota one of the best

Mine is fitted over to the engine block flywheel. With a new additional relay the wiring is no problem but I seem to have a thick gauge brown wire that seems to lead to the ignition switch somewhere into the dash. I did not record/forgot where this wire was supposed to end somewhere near the solenoid. Some help needed. It does not seem to be a negative wire.

Could it be a feed wire for the ignition relay after the ignition switch?

Ok, at least tell me if I am wrong.  >:(

I suspect that the thick gauge brown wire that ends somewhere into the dash could be a power feed to the dash (ignition and other fused circuits), feeding battery power. An existing wire from the battery ends at the solenoid waiting for the starter relay function to be activated and this brown wire takes the battery power over to the dash.  ???

If you want to know if the brown wire has some power all you need to do is take a meter put the red meter cable in it and put the black with the car body or directly to the earth. Turn on and off all switches you know and see it you get a reading. But if it is a very thick wire normaly means that a high voltage passes from it. Hope I helped you a little.

If you want to know if the brown wire has some power all you need to do is take a meter put the red meter cable in it and put the black with the car body or directly to the earth. Turn on and off all switches you know and see it you get a reading. But if it is a very thick wire normaly means that a high voltage passes from it. Hope I helped you a little.

I've found out the mystery of the brown wire in another thread, Electrical problems by tas131. It is a power feed wire to the fusebox as I suspect. Solves my problem of which points I have to tie the brown wire to at its solenoid end.

Glad I could help!

Well you should thank Thotos too!