Starting Problems

[january 131CL]

Hi all,

My 131 have starting problems. It's actually the starter. It's getting very difficult to engage it. Could it be because the battery being old or could it be that the starter is of the type that requires high battery performance. Lead is getting more expensive in Malaysia, so could there be a solution where the 131 could use small performance batteries, maybe with a modification to smaller power requirement starters? Price of batteries are becoming dearer than a starter change.

I am faced with cooling performance. Here in Malaysia, the daytime tempretures could get rather high especially during traffic jams, increasing the risk of engine failures if one's cooling systems is not up to mark. Might a fan switch with a lower operating prompt be the answer? If so what tempreture setting should I change to.

[Thotos]

What type of engine is in your 131? The Fiat Twin Cam engines as fitted to the 131 require high torque to spin them fast enough to start so the starter motors are 1.6KW! Therefore also need powerful batteries to provide the cranking current. A smaller started motor will not be up to the job and a smaller battery will not supply sufficient current for starting. I am sure there are places in Malaysia that can refurbish your 131 starter motor.

I had a similar starting problem and I suspected the starter motor. My suspicions were correct but the problem was that the starter motor was simply coming apart! Have a look at previous posts here:
http://131mirafiori.com/smf/index.php?topic=460.0
and here:
http://131mirafiori.com/smf/index.php?topic=472.msg2529#msg2529

Changing the temperature at which the cooling fan starts will not eliminate overheating problems. The fan normally starts at the correct temperature and it should not rise beyond that if the cooling system is working fine. If the temperature continues to rise after the fan starts, then probably your radiator is not efficient enough. Try flushing the radiator with plenty of clean water to remove any sludge and if that doesn't improve matters replace the radiator.

[january 131CL]

Thank you Thotos,
My radiator had the service, but following your logic that the fan switch will only work at the required temperature, I will make sure that the fanswitch works properly.

As regards the starting power requirement of 1.6kw, well I thank you too. That reduces the spectrum by which I need to search a solution for my starting problem. What would you suggest if my engine is a SOHC 1.6CL, would a smaller 124 starter suffice? Mind you I am not about to make changes purely for performance or sticking to `originality' as in OEM. My considerations are purely economics. As I said earlier, a starter change is cheaper than a big battery change. My son-in-law's Toyota VIOS 1.5l have a tiny battery as original OEM.

[Thotos]

The non-twin cam engines have lower power starter motors as low as 0.8KW for the OHV engines. I don't know about the SOHC engines but as a newer design I would expect them to have a lower power starter motor. Older engines (like the 124) are likely to have larger starter motors than a modern engine. Most Japanese cars have very small starter motors (as low as 300W!) as the engines are easy to turn and start and hence have very small batteries.

[Walezy]

The other thing about modern starters is that they have reduction gear and spin very fast. by reducing speed you get a good torque and there is no need for big battery. I have now in my 2.0l 131 a starter from fiat croma and it works perfectly, before that i was using few different fat 131,132 starters and i always got a lot of problems(the worst nightmare was then i left the road on special stage and could not start the car with overheated starter-16v head).
THe other option might be Lada niva starter with reduction gear. new cost around 100-130euro and works perfectly but i used it with fiat 124(small ribbed case) dogbox that i have with lada belhousing(after small mods it fits 2.0l engine-hydraulic clutch and flywheel from lada are required). I do not know if it helps but maybe lada starter is the same as fiat 131 ohc.

[january 131CL]

I am new to Fiat Engines. Is it true that 131 engines, the older ones are still push-rod design. I was under the impression it was a SOHC due to the use of timing belts. If so, is this one of the reason for the higher starting power requirement. I had the alternator changed to a Japanese unit, 65amp. Could this add to my starting problems apart from the smaller battery size.

How about a Japanese 2.0l starter, would these provide sufficient power to a 1.6CL engine like in my 131. 

If not, it looks like I have no other option other than a bigger, costlier battery. I've dismantled the starter, got to reassemble it. Thought I could save the little trip to the bank.

[Thotos]

The first generation 1600 engines fitted to the 131S and later the CL are OHV (i.e. pushrod) engines. These have an 800W starter motor. Normally they are fitted with a 45A alternator except for the automatic versions or ones fitted with air conditioning which should have a 65A alternator. I would have thought that fitting a Japanese starter motor will be more trouble and expense than refurbishing the original and fitting a descent standard battery. 

[january 131CL]

Thanks Thotos, but really my obsession for Japanese is more economics than faith. In Malaysia, the supply of Japanese parts and equipment is the religion. If I were to live in Rome, I'll roam like Romans do. I know how much more you know about 131s. I am only trying to survive here.

I read about the carbs over in another thread. The side draft ones and the single plane manifold thingy. It does draw my interest though. But can those improvements make FIATCAN enjoy his Sundays? I am sure they can, but over here as I said the religion is Japanese and they determine whether we'll enjoy our Sundays.

And Sundays are the reason why I need to settle my starting problems. Back to this. Theoratically, a higher rated set of alternator should easily store adequate electrical charge in a small battery which in turn will be adequate to power up a larger Japanese starter.

I've done that to my VW Transporter with success, a Honda starter to a 2.0l flat-four VW and oops, the battery was a larger unit.

[Thotos]

I get your point. I suppose the phrase "necessity is the mother of invention" is very apt here.

An alternator with higher output will not put any more power into a battery than a smaller alternator; it will simply top up the battery faster. A battery can only hold its nominated charge and no more. It's just like filling a glass of water, there's only a certain amount of water a glass can hold and a larger tap (faucet  for our American friends) will simply fill it up faster.

What is important in a battery with regards to starting is the cranking current. That's the amount of "power" the battery will deliver to the starter motor to start the car. A large battery might have a large capacity so will hold a lot of charge but might still be unable to deliver a high cranking current. On the other hand, a small battery will have a lower charge capacity but still be able to deliver a very high current for starting the car.

[Tristan]

on the cooling issue this stuffhttp://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp  really works at helping lower the temp. By up to 15 degrees I think!

[Baja141]

January5159,
pls post photos of the engine bay of your CL, we have to see your current set up,
maybe could help.

[january 131CL]

I've recently discovered that over in KL APM makes Japanese starters for 131 Fiat. For under RM200 one can get a Japanese starter which do not strain the battery and so N60s battery can also be fitted to do the job just as well. I've almost given up on the Japanese starters. But I've recently bought a Taiwan starter relay to replace the relay function to my original Italian starter. It's supposed to relay 30 amps to the motor to crank the engine. What I am not certain is whether there will be synchornisation problems like the motor turning before the solenoid pushes the starting gears out to the flywheel.

Wish me luck.

[Thotos]

For under RM200

What's that in real money?  (is that what RM stands for? Real Money  )

I've recently bought a Taiwan starter relay to replace the relay function to my original Italian starter.

Do you mean the solenoid that sits on top of the starter?
Normally, the motor starts turning after the solenoid has pushed the gear forward as the power to the motor is provided by the solenoid which only makes contact once it's moved the gear forward.

[Baja141]

 RM can also means Rob Money, Theo .. ? taiwan starter solenoid at 200 m'sian ringgit look like supplier already rob january's money? ( just joking)..

[january 131CL]

Well I forgot to mention that upon testing I found out that the existing solenoid works well to push the starting gears out to the flywheel. But this solenoid fail to allow enough electrical contact to its relay to activate the main starter motor. So every crank at the ignition keys will only provide one click i.e the solenoid pushing the starter gears out.

I bought a starter relay for RM15 not RM200. Again my question, will the main starter motor turn before the existing solenoid pushes the starter gears out? If so would it make a crunching noise. This set-up is almost similar to those found in classic Minis, except that those Minis uses centrifugal force to push the starting gears out to the flywheel.