131mirafiori forum

Just back from a 400km round trip on GKMR10 and a few new noises have developed in my Supermirafiori. I was wondering if I described some of the symptons ...could some of the suspension experts help me diagnose the problem...?

First one is a very slight drone from the front wheel area - It is road speed and not engine speed dependant - It only appears when steering angle is applied & then disappears on the straight ahead - Worn wheel bearing?

Second issue is creaking from the front section of the car when driving over a bumpy surface (edited). Both on the initial impact and the subsequent rebound. This developed into a knocking/clonking sound towards the end of the trip.

This has been accompanied by a strange feeling in the steering. It's fine in the straight ahead position but when emerging from roundabouts and with the car pointing in the desired direction, usually releasing my grip on the steering wheel slightly, allows the wheels to naturally straighten and the steering wheel to centre. There is now a slight delay in this happening.

I've not hit anything with the front wheels that I'm aware of, all the wheel nuts are tight, there is nothing obviously broken underneath and the car has new front shocks.

Any ideas...? :)

The noise does sound like it could be a wheel bearing. The knocking and associated steering issue could perhaps be a top mount. if the struts have recently been replaced perhaps something is loose or incorrectly fitted?

Ball joints. Telltale sounds - at least for Mercedes cars, so I think the same with Fiat. Replace track control arms and everything's fine again. (btw, I have two brand new arms for sale...)

Second issue is creaking from the front section of the car when driving over a bumpy service. Both on the initial impact and the subsequent rebound. This developed into a knocking/clonking sound towards the end of the trip.

Choose a new garage if your receiving a 'bumpy service'  ;D ;D

However -if it is a bumpy surface then that is different  ;D

It does sound like the bushes in the TCAs are giving up.The new front shocks (being more rigid in their attitude ) has highlighted the weakness in the main anti roll bar bushes in the TCAs -Thats where Id go first -a ball joint normally gives you tracking problems and tyre wear will soon show and steering 'wallow' is evident -the fact it returns to normal attitude soon after says its anti roll bar bushes.  good luck  ;D ;D
Curt

I agree with Robert. For my money it a ball joint Kevin as a first choice. What Curt and Miarifioriman says is very very good advice too.
It's definitely time for a careful check of the whole front end, and watch out for looseness in the rear axle mountings too, as that might be a factor in the steering issues.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys - Luckily I have a pair of OE TCAs (excuse my mechanical ignorance but is this another name for ball joint?). I could still be interested in buying your pair as a back up though Robert.  Are you coming to 3MA11?

What about roll bar bushings? Could they be at fault too? I know that a lot of lads have bought bushings from Yagmur so maybe a full set of those could help too...Thoughts?

Throwing parts at the car hoping you've replaced the problem part is one way to go.......but I'd recommend getting a professional diagnosis of the car aliments and replacing parts deemed to be proven to be past their best. It will be ultimately be cheaper, safer, and will get to the exact source of the problem(s).

Hi Kev,
if your changing the Track control arms you will almost certainly be changing the Anti roll bar to TCA rubbers as well.
I bought a set from Yagmur and could not believe how much difference they made.
Definetly a good buy.
You will need to push the centre out of the bars you have but dont worry it comes out easy and Yagmurs are a perfect fit.
As for anti roll bar locating rubbers i replaced these on my car with some from Power flex.
Dont forget the TCA to chassis mount as well.
Ofcourse you will have to have the steering tracked when your done.
Steve

I think I'd be happier replacing as much as is reasonable under the circumstances Graham. I do use the car a lot and place a lot of trust in it ..so I'd like to have it performing at its best and safest at all times.

Sorry - ball joints = track control arms?

Steve - Would you mind itemising the replacement bushings that you are suggesting in their entirety please? I know the TCAs come with rubber bushings already so am a bit puzzled here. I'm happy to replace every bushing that could be affecting/causing this issue including those at the rear ..if fitted. Cheers... :)

Kev, the ball joints are part of the track control arm, the outer part so to say. The bushings in the TCA go into the front axle body; they can be replaced, but normally you change the complete TCA and that's that.

As for TMA11, I'm all set to go, providing the Ineptitude is ready by then for a longer journey. If you are interested in the TCAs, however, I might as well send them to you, shipping is around 14 Euros?

Kevin,
follow the link here, manufacturer 'Fiat' and then click on your model, you get a lsit of all their products for that car.

http://www.superflex.co.uk/

As for the Anti roll bar to TCA, contact Yagmur he has the better ones.
Steve

That's very sound advice Kevin, don't just ignore it and change things for the sake of it. Aftermarket replacement parts, even Fiat "original" parts, are usually not as good as the true originals fitted at the factory so unless there's a faulty or worn original part you are much better off keeping the original rather than replacing it with a new part just for the sake of it.

Kevin,

I don't think it's got anything to do with the TCA's or anti roll bar. It's just the top bearing. When this is broken it will make noise and prevents the steering wheel from coming in the straight ahead position again.
I could be wrong of course, but I think it's just that part. On the other hand, refitting some rubber parts could do no harm after so many years of use.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys - I'd like to have all the necessary parts before getting the job done and I like the idea of some preventative maintenance at the same time especially with products that come recommended such as Yagmur's parts.

Mike - Can you explain what a top bearing is please?

I've crawled around the car tonight and taken the following pics in the hope that whatever is causing the problem might be obvious to the seasoned mechanics out there.

Anti-roll bar bushings...

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers001.jpg)

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers002.jpg)

TCAs

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers005.jpg)

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers006.jpg)

Ball joints..

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers009.jpg)

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers008.jpg)

Rear bushings..

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers010.jpg)

(http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx305/kev132/SuspensionRubbers011.jpg)

Is this all of them and can anyone spot any worn parts..? Thanks... Maybe I should take pictures from a different angle..? :)

Top bearing can be parts numbered 2, 3 and 4 rolled up into one piece, or if seperate (depends on manufacturer), just item 3.

Photos will tell us nothing about the steering rack internals condition either Kevin.....
It's now time for a trip to a trusted garage before the next long journey.

(http://www.autopartslib.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Macpherson-Strut-Assembly-Parts-Diagram.png)

Thanks Graham - The plot thickens - Maybe I should just put a couple of bags of cement in the engine bay to hold it all down....! :D

Hi Kevin,

It's NOT part 3 on this drawings. In fact it's not on the pictures at all.
From the head... Top to bottom: Bolt and ring,  mounting plate with the rubber with three nuts on the tower (2). Under the tower is another plate,with the three bolts, (not on the picture). On the top is a large ring (3).When dismounting this holds down the spring.Then there's another plate which holds part 4. It's on top of this one that there's a flat bearing. It makes the turning of the whole thing possible. This is broken for certain.

See the picture for identifying the ball joint. One of the weak parts of any front axle:

It's not so weak after all. There needs to be space in the ones from the 131's. About 3 millimeters. Inside it's a ball on a plate. Works like a little spring. Don't be fooled by any room on the joint. Stick a tire iron between the ball joint arm and the bearing housing, pull it down and see how much it gives to BOTH sides. If it's more then 3 millimeters then it's broken.

Check trackrod ends while your at it kev and balljoints fiats like them , could be the road you picked  ;D

Ha ha - I was thinking that ...but no-one can say we were driving quickly at this event - The scenery was too nice... ;)

Looks like it will not be possible to diagnose this on the internet so a trip to the garage is the only answer.... Thanks for your willingness to help guys.  :)

No creaks from 125 replayed everything up front after balljoint broke

Its difficult to predict from the photos you posted - the anti roll bar bushes look fine - the anti roll to tca bushes are definitely past there best - but i dont think they would cause a clonking unless under harsh braking or acceleration. Ball joints can be tested - Jack the car up and tyre lever the stub axle from the tca and look/feel for any movement. You also mentioned a wheel bearing - again jack it up grab the wheel at 12 and 6 o clock and push at 12 o clock and pull from 6 oclock  toward and away from you and check for movement-also do it for 3 and 9 oclock - whislt doing the 3 and 9 oclock look at the the track rod end and steering rack for loose joints excessive movement you will find it  ;D ;D