131mirafiori forum

IM going to replace the battery on the 131, i notice that the battery fitted is 2 inchs short of filling the tray.
Can anyone tell me which battery is the best  with a high cold crank capability and will fill the tray?
Steve

Steve,

I would really suggest you go to a specialized battery dealer. They can check your alternator amp rating and charging voltage and suggest what you need. 

The external dimensions are not really so important.  Use of  a specific  battery is really determined by several factors: what alternator you have , what is the charging voltage, if you use headlights every day during daylight ( as required all year in Sweden and Poland ) , how often you drive the car , long or short distances, do you perform regular maintenance of your batteries , charge them , etc.

I use a standard battery (the kind you can open the cells and check charge level and add dematerialized water) if required.  Not sure what is is its cold cranking rating and what amp/h rating.

If you select a very high amp/h rating your alternator may not keep it charged sufficiently , and if too small it will "boil" the battery overcharging it (risk of explosion) due to hydrogen gas being produced by charging it too much.   

So keep these elements in mind when selecting a battery.

I would also suggest that  you get yourself a starter with high gear ratio.  Starts more easily by producing higher starting RPM and uses less juice to do so. Incidentally it also weights half of a standard starter.

Miro         

This is because airconditioned cars have bigger battery (55Ah instead of 45Ah) and fill the tray. Usually standard 131 fit 45Ah battery and unless you live in a cold and dark place it will be enough.

Miro,
Thanks for the information,
where can i get a starter with high gear ratio?
Steve

No Miro, sorry, that's wrong. The charging voltage in a car does not vary (unless there's a fault in the regulator) and it's typically fixed at between 13.8 volts and 14.4 volts. The charging current will vary according to the alternator's output and the battery's requirements. The battery's current rating is the amount of current the battery can deliver and has nothing (or very little) to do with the charging current. Otherwise little 4 Amp battery charges would never be able to charge a 'large' battery.

There's a lot of power needed to crank a Fiat twin cam engine and hence the 2 litre twin cam Fiats are fitted with a 1.6KW starter motor that will need at a minimum 130 Amps of cranking current. Car batteries normally give you two specification figures:

1. Capacity rated Ah (ampere hours) which is the length of time in hours the battery will last if 1 amp is drawn from it.

2. 'Strength' rated in Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) which is the amount of current a battery can provide at −18 ?C for 30 seconds.

Steve, you should get a battery that will give you at a minimum 40 Ah and preferably nearer to 60 Ah and a CCA of at  least 400, preferably over 500.  

The recommended battery for a 131 is an 078.

 

Jim Mcguigan is the best man to get you a chape battery ;) ;D

in my service instructions 1,1Kw starter motor for 2000tc is quoted and not 1,6Kw, I don't think things were different for north European cars.

You are probably right; my memory is not what it used to be  :-\  Still, 1.1 KW is a lot. The smaller engined OHV cars had a 0.8KW starter I think and Japanese cars have them as low as 0.4KW.

Thotos is right except for the kw for the starter motor which is indeed 1.1kw.

Also a point missed is that when the car is running its the alternator that runs all of the cars electrics
and the surplus goes to charge the battery.

Jim Mc Guigan  will sort youse out ;D ;D

Ive got a HCB075   
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_264105_langId_-1_categoryId_165762
  calcium one and the stick on the battery is even more 620 amps  and expensive
 good job it was all ready on the car  :D :D

I too have an 075 battery (from my Gamma  ;)) on my 131 at the moment but while it can be made to fit, the poles are the wrong way round for the Fiat. The 078 battery is the same dimensions with the poles the correct way round for the 131.

Thotos , I stand corrected.

 I would however submit that my experience suggests that the amp rating of the alternator must match both electricity use in the car as well as the capacity of the battery. Does this make more sense or should I take my Basic Electricity 101 class again  >:( ;D :) ??? ???   

Miro

I got it from Allison Autmotive. Contact Mark at allison1565@verizon.net.

I have bought my gear reduction starter for 131 2.0 liter engine at $225 plus shipping , which I believe is a real bargain. Actually I will buy one more for my 124 spider, later this year.

Miro     

The alternator must be able to produce enough current to satisfy the demands placed on it by the running engine and accessories in the car. The battery size must be sufficient to start the car successfully and to a certain extent provide current for the accessories even though the alternator will be running these most of the time when the engine is running.

If you car is standard then obviously the standard rated alternator and battery should be fine. If you start adding stereo equipment, extra lights and so on then perhaps it is time to consider upgrades.

An interesting aside is that as the current output of the alternator increases the charge voltage can often decrease.

Conversely on many battery chargers the charge voltage will often increase as the current drops as the battery charges. This can be avoided by using a regulated power supply which supplies a constant output voltage whatever the current draw.

For powerful batteries see here :o

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/ (http://www.odysseyfactory.com/)

At least half of that is right Miro  ;) ;D The alternator should certainly match the electricity use in the car (and have a little bit extra to give to the battery) but there's no alternator match to the capacity of the battery.

I had a 1987 Lancia Thema turbo in I think 97 ? this car was an LS so had electric everything and air conditioning and the alternator failed. This alternator was a bosch unit either 95 amp or 110 amp ? Now from experience with alternators 99% of the time the fault is with the brush block regulator in the back so I fitted a 45 amp brush block regulator from a sport and it worked perfectly and never gave any trouble.

Why not fit a DRY CELL unit as it will be one less liquid in the car so removing another rust issue

Jim McGuigan has gel batteries he is the man!

Daft Dave is the man as we need him running the country  :o :o :o

No Jim Mcguigan is yer man ::) ::)

075 60AH looks like the one.
Thanks guys.
Steve

Miro: ill contat Allison Automtive and see what prices are like.

The recommended battery for a 131 is an 078.

[/quote]

Theo,
would you recommend a maintenance free or non-maintenance free 078 battery?

078 has the terminals in the wrong place for my car.
Currently the negative terminal is nearest the front of the car.
075 seems to be the right way around.
Steve

Are you sure Steve? Maybe my ailing memory is failing me again  ??? But with an 075 having the negative terminal towards the front of the car the battery poles will be away from the inner wing. That'll mean that the positive lead will have to stretch to reach. It can be done as I currently have an 075 on my car but an 078 with the negative terminal towards the front will have its poles nearest the inner wing and therefore the positive terminal will reach easier.

Hi Theo,
the little things your learn on this web site are invaluable, it seems i have the wrong battery fitted and its the wrong way around! (see photos).
Ive changed my mind now seems i need a 078 and route the cables the way they should be.
Steve.

(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq71/parrish_028/P3031680.jpg)

(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq71/parrish_028/P3031681.jpg)

(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq71/parrish_028/P3031682.jpg)

Yes Steve, that's an 075 battery the wrong way round. But it looks as if someone has replaced the brown wire connected to the positive terminal with two thinner ones (this should be the wire that goes to the alternator) and in your case it's long enough to go round the washer bottle. Normally there's a thick brown wire coming from a connector near the inner wing that's not long enough to go round the washer bottle.

Why dont you positive earth the battery as this removes alot of the rust risk as most machines are wired this way and they never disolve like a 131  :o

I have a new 60AH battery fitted, however car will only turn over at 200RPM when starting, this seems a little low to me, any ideas, any sugestions? any one else have any figures on starting (RPM)?
Ive changed the starter motor and that has made little difference.
Ive fitted an Omex ECU/EFI and need at least 200RPM for the injectors to start, and just as soon as i get to 200 injectors come in engine coughs and drops below 200 and injectors cut out! Im trying to get a fix from Omex supplier but for now and whilst im waiting im trying to sort out the low starting turn over.
Steve

get a bigger battery. as big as you can fit into battery tray. i use 68ah in my 131 1600ohc and 75ah in my 2,0 dohc lada. i never experienced any problems with running a bigger battery than factory fitted. in my experience a factory fitted battery is as small as possible (cheapest) to turn over the engine. biger battery means more amps meaning more revs while cranking and more attempts available until engine starts.

basic electicity teaches us that bigger battery just takes longer time to charge to full capacity than smaller battery on same charge current. 55ah battery and 75ah battery take the same time to charge up to 55ah capacity and then 75ah continues charging to it's full capacity.

slow cranking may be also result of not so good starter motor. worn parts inside will cause drop in rpm. are you sure that the motor you installed is 100% good? swapping one used starter for other used is often futile.

solutions:
1: attach another battery to one already installed via jumper cables and try cranking. if it turns over faster, get a bigger battery.
2: if it doesn't turn over faster then starter motor is to blame. the one you already have out of the car proffesionally rebuilt. that solves the problem usually.
3. at what compression ratio is your engine running? high compression engines usually crank very slowly with ordinary starter motors. when i bolted a head from 1,8 onto a 2,0 block with dome pistons in it could barely turn over with rebuilt starter and 75ah battery. after about 20.000kms as the piston rings got worn and compression went down it began to turn over faster and faster...

I would do exactly the same !

This is how I selected my battery for 131.

Miro

I would also try using jump leads to supplement the standard wiring to see if this is at fault. A bad earth lead can for example cause similar problems.

good point mirafioriman!
i solved that problem by attaching another finger thick piece of cable between negative on battery and a bolt on a cylinder head holding the exaust manifold

If you have a very high compression ratio and all else fails, why not try a split charge twin battery and go 24v start, 12 charge set up

  worked for me.

Toad , I would use the high RPM starter !
Worked for me !

Miro

There's no need to mention the Ah rating of the battery here as it's immaterial. What you should be looking at is the CCA rating of the battery which denotes the amount of current or "strength" the battery can supply. If your battery has a CCA of less than 400 then it's probably too weak; you need over 400 and preferably close to 600. Once you've got a strong battery you need to make sure you can get that power to the starter motor. Ensure you have good cable connections especially the earth cable. Your car seems to have had some wires changed so make sure the main wire from the battery to the Starter solenoid hasn't been changed for a thinner wire; if in doubt fit new thick wires between the battery and the starter motor and endure you have a good earth lead on the battery and the engine/starter. Use a voltmeter on the starter's main feed wire and ensure you haven't got a voltage drop when the engine is being cranked. Finally, the most likely culprit is probably the starter motor or its solenoid so are you sure the replacement you tried is a good one?
 

Car started OK after some adjustment to the ECU.
Earth wire from the battery gets warm on long cranking.
All connections have been cleaned, and it still gets warm.
In  my original post i was wondering if anyone could check to see what their 131 cranks over at  startup?
Theo, although the car is running ill not be able to make 3MA10, as i will be in Singapore! the car is also still not road legal in Spain.
The brown cable to the solenoid is still their the extra 2 x brown cables you can see are for the OMEX relays.
The starter motor is suspect and ill be trying to get ano some time.
Car now has ECU/EFI just needs some fine tunning.
If your interested have a look here for the full story.
http://www.sfconline.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4151
Steve