131mirafiori forum

OK help
According to the 131 owner book the correct way to start the 131 with single carb auto choke is as follows.
1. Cold Start..
Ensure car is in nutural & depress clutch.
2.Depress accelerator pedal and release this will enable auto choke to come into operation.
3.Turn ignition key to AVV & release imediately engine fires...
I have tried the above many times on cold start & think she has only started first time once or twice since i got her.

1.Warm start..
When starting a warm engine simply operate the starter.
2.If engine is very hot fully depress the accelerator pedal and release gradually as soon as engine fires.Do not pump pedal as excessively rich mixture will form.

I have tried all above for cold start and hot start some times it works most times it does not.
She will always start but usually takes a bit of time wheather hot or cold and its a pain in the ass at petrol stations etc.Once she is running she is sweet.
Any ideas?? .I have fitted new plugs and am going to order new leads

And all of above was the same before i fitted the K&N......

OK help
According to the 131 owner book the correct way to start the 131 with single carb auto choke is as follows.
1. Cold Start..
Ensure car is in nutural & depress clutch.
2.Depress accelerator pedal and release this will enable auto choke to come into operation.
Pump her up few times to give her some fuel to run on.
3.Turn ignition key to AVV & release imediately engine fires...
I have tried the above many times on cold start & think she has only started first time once or twice since i got her.

1.Warm start..
When starting a warm engine simply operate the starter.
2.If engine is very hot fully depress the accelerator pedal and release gradually as soon as engine fires.Do not pump pedal as excessively rich mixture will form.

Try not to press the accelerator at all and just start her. It this does not work try the method suggested in the manual.

I have tried all above for cold start and hot start some times it works most times it does not.
She will always start but usually takes a bit of time wheather hot or cold and its a pain in the ass at petrol stations etc.Once she is running she is sweet.
Any ideas?? I have fitted new plugs and am going to order new leads.

Inspect all ignition connections, make sure the distributor cap and rotor are in good condition,  Make sure the timing is set right., and the points (if you have them) are in good condition and set to proper distance.  

If things are right  the method suggested by the manual is correct and should work.

If the plugs are new and correct it looks like you have either a connection problem of some sort (points, distributor cap, rotor, wiring, condenser) or most likely your timing is off.

Re Condenser - just replace it with a new one of the same rating! cost pennies and can be very unpredictable.  

A good bet is to inspect all elements and replace everything in doubt.

 Also note that there are only two possibilities : fuel or juice. Try juice first as this is easier and if this does not work look into the carb. Maybe your carburetor is not holding fuel and without it starting is not easy... To test it use a syringe and while starting have someone apply additional fuel into the  carb. If the car starts immediately you know fuel is the problem.  

But beware there maybe multiple reasons for the car refusing to start easily so doing full inspection of all elements and replacing/adjusting /fixing all elements is really a must.  


Let us know what you find.  Also , tell us what ignition do you have, what plugs, what engine , what carb ... etc. You 'd be surprised how the wrong plugs can make it hard to start.   

Miro

Ok Miro.
Thanks for info
I will try the simple solution of your start up procedure first in the morning.
Failing that i will get the listed info plug type etc.
Im never away from the car when im at home and wife thinks im obsessed with it.
So will post info when i sneak back to garage. ;D ;D

Welcome to the club !!!

Miro

Hello, a common falure in these cars is that the thermal elongating spring in the starter system tends to stuck if dirt and grease vapours have penetrated the box in which is placed. You'll find this box easily because is that aluminium piece that has two rubber pipes going in, besides the air filter, screwed to the carburettor. Unscrew carefully (it's aluminium), clean and degrease, inspect the idle variator which is a saw tooth aluminium blade, this is immediately besides the spring, and clean it. Don't touch the screw that allows regulation of the starter action because has yet been trimmed by fiat. You should control if rubber pipes are free from dirt too, your spring needs warm water to switch off the starter.

Auto chokes love them or hate them.

In my experience with Auto chokes and the way they operate.

1) From cold depress firmly to the fullest position the accelerator pedal, then release.
Do not, repeat do not attempt to press the accelerator again as in my experience this can result in the choke resetting to normal operations (Not on)
It is tempting to pump the carb but try to resisit and see how it goes.
2) Turn the key!

Yes i know it sounds simple but if the choke is working as it should the above will work.

Im not fully familiar with the carb but some carbs do have an excitor!! attached! not sure what it does but look for a single wire going to an electrical connection some where near the manifiold/carb if you have one make sure you get a small current when the ignition is on?

Steve

From my experience one of the problems I have come across on more than one occasion is bits of instant gasket or gasket sealer that have broken away from where ever they were used and getting stuck in the auto choke pipe where it comes off the steel heater pipe below the exhaust manifold thus stopping the flow of hot water to the auto choke unit and causing it to stay on, this instant gasket and sealant can cause problems like this years later and there is no need to use it if the surfaces are cleaned properly, at most use some grease on the new gasket

Tried Miros start procedure today and had a slight improvment.
As requested info Miro.
Motor engine 131 B 2.OOO
Version 131 AK
Carb type 32 ADF 4 250
Spark plugs NKG R -BPR7ES
Orange 7mm high performance leads
Inter motor ignition coil with yellow high performance 8mm lead
Distriburator code ZZ4 1402 1A1
Air filter-K&N 57i high flow.

Plugs were fitted by previous owner jst before i got it they were new.When i removed them tonite they were dry black and sooty.
Meaning carb mixture settings are  wrong ?
Over ritch fuel mix?
 :-\ :-\ :-\

Black plugs could indicate a over rich mixture which could be adjustment or the choke not going off properly. It can also occur if the car has been run for a short time and not allowed to reach operating temperature. The best time to take the plugs out and inspect them then is after a good run when the engine has been fully warmed through.

So what about that model type of NKG plug do you all think they are ok to leave in.
Also where is the best place to get new quality high performance silicone leads in UK and what brand ie BOSCH  ??? ???

The NGK plugs are fine to leave in if they are pretty new until the car is due a service. For leads there are a range available depending on how much you want to spend ::)

Mirafioriman.
Got price for black 7mm competition electrosports made by Magnecor ?48.50 ?
I have not really looked into costs of leads in a long long time so not sure what to pay for a good quality make.

Magnecor seem to be popular with the Ford boys and I think they have a pretty good reputation.

Sounds like a reasonable price :)

NGK plugs should really be BP6ES (or BPR6ES but I don't like the resistor ones) but BPR7ES should also work fine. I find the Fiat Twin cam likes Champion N6YC (or N6YCC) plugs best. But I am puzzled with your coil. Do you not have the original Sport ignition electronic unit? They don't work too well with 'standard' coils that are meant to work with points which is what it seems to me you have in your car.

Not sure about the coil.
 Im still learning as my mechanical knowledge is not great jst average but ill look into it further.

Please post photos of the coil, ignition unit and distributor and it may just make some sense to some of us.

THIS IS THE KEY !!!  


Series of pictures will clarify a lot of basic issues. Make sure you cover coil, distributor, ignition unit, plugs , if possible.  

If you are not very experienced ( but even if you are) be VERY systematic during the diagnosis of the problem.

If we start with electricity as main suspect, we must exhaust investigating ALL of all potential electrical sources of the malfunction before moving to potential fuel and mechanical related sources of the problem.

It maybe painstaking but : you will learn a lot during this process and once the problem is solved you will be sure all elements are correct and set right.

  
You say you followed my suggestion , but this is unclear if you i.e. :

1/ replaced the condenser ,
2/ verified integrity of the wires leading to the points,
3/ inspected/replaced the points
4/ checked points gap,  ,
5/ made sure the rotor and distributor caps are not cracked / broken ,
6/ cleaned the contact points on the rotor and under the distributor cap,
7/ checked for quality of the spark delivered by the coil (replaced the coil in doubt )
8/ checked timing (on a points system this can be done statically with a  piece of wire and a small bulb
9/replaced (cleaned the plugs)

(I believe you changed high voltage wires from the coil to distributor and from distributor to plugs).

Unless I have forgotten something this is an exhaustive list which will either identify and remove the source of the problem problem of eliminate electricity as the source of the problem.


Only if all this is done you should move to investigate fuel starvation / or overfueling as the problem source.

If fuel  and electricity are not causing the problems you should start looking into mechanical area.

Without scaring you it could be something like sticking valve or lack of compression due to broken/ worn ring . It is not very likely  but you will not know until you go through the motions very
S Y S T E M A T I C A L Y .

If you take shortcuts it will be very frustrating and will make it very painstaking to actually find and eliminate this problem.  Sorry if you want to do it right you have to go step by step until the problem is solved .    

Note there are very high chances the problem is simple , easy to remove and can be dealt with at one at little or no cost !  

Miro  


PS: Make notes of all you do before each test! Without this you will be going in circles.

PS PS Look here for reference on the electronic ignition for 131 :

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1830

I have looked at Distributor code ZZ4 1402 1A1 and found no brefer5ence to it  an any of may reference manuals...  pictures please - does anybody knows this model / maybe this was one of UK market installed models by Lukas ???

.  

Had the 131 out today for a run. Stopped at father in laws old timer mechanic's garage to let him hear it running.straight away he said it was running very rich.He was busy so nxt week he is going to put it on diagnostics and check emmisions and adjust the carb.
Engine was hot and as usual turned it over 3-4 times he said you have to pump the gas in 2-3 short quick pumps to let air into carb and a bit of fuel and it did work.Tried it again 3 times later on an it also worked while engine was hot. Any way starting is still an issue  and i will have to try again tomorow jst to see..
I will get to the bottom of this as it is a pain in the ass.
1.Thotos - I will try and post photos of coil etc wed afternoon.
2.Miro ive stuff on nxt day or two but i will follow your list to the letter and let you know the outcome asap
Thanks.........

Sure thing ,,

Miro

PS: describe how and what you will find as this may be interesting to all of us and another leavening experience. Remember these cars have souls , and as every female have their humors  .... :D

M

Tried sending the pictures tonight of coil etc problem with site every time i send i get timed out and wont let me sent.
Will re try am some time  :-\

Problems with carburation and ignition on my 131 gave me endless problems, i could never seem to get the right set up!
I know it should be simple but in the end i took drastic action and im now replacing the ignition and carburettors with an ECU/EFI set up.
Drastic and expensive so i wouldnt advise it, and at this time i have yet to prove the ECU/EFI.
The list that Thotos suggests to follow should sort any obvious gremlins out.
Steve
 

Quite honestly I had none!

I equipped myself with a VDO gauge set allowing me to synchronize all 4 barrels at the same time , an exhaust analyzer and a strobe light to set timing.

I am surprised , but never had problems starting it (cold or hot). Every time It looks like she was just waiting to be turned on !  ;D ;D ;D ;D 

I do admit that to check timing , plugs , carb adjustment before every event during a season ( ca. every  2-3 weeks.  8)  I also run on Shell V power  only with lead replacement additive.  :P 

Actually on my spider (2.0 fi California specs) i never had any problems whatsoever  either !  (I just replaced key engine sensors: cold start valve, auxiliary air regulator , throttle position sensor when I bought it 5 years ago. Starts every time like it just waited for me to turn her on.

Miro

I wander why my wife keeps saying I got two hot lovers in my garage  ;D

 

Make sure they are max 800x600 pixels!

Miro 

Still have not had time to source the start problem but hope to get onto it nxt week.
Hope to get the pictures on later tonight as im trying to get best way to post them and me and computers dont realy get on.
Miro i am suspect about the distributor model  i will post photo of that also.
According to my Mirafiori sport data and characteristics  book the recomended spark plug for the 2.0l tc are
as follows. I assume the Champion N6YC & N6YCC are just as good to use as the recomended Champion N 7 Y
Others are.
  Fiat genuine 1 L 45 J
  Champion N 7 Y
  Magneti Marelli CW 78 LP.
  Bosch W 6 D

First set of iginition setup pictures

follow on...

more

.....

Before you go buying plugs and leads etc. I'd be checking the quality of spark at the plug and trying another coil. Do these systems use a ballast resistor on the coil? Is the coil suitable for the voltage supplied (with or without ballast)?

Distributor pics

more...

OZ Mick.
Havent had chance to check spark quality etc,
ie; Miro's list of checks i hope to get it sussed out this week comeing getting time is my issue due to work.

Ok been out in garage took off the leads one by one and checked spark quality against the block on all and they were fine.Good spark.
Cleaned out carb with Carburator cleaner spray.followed instructions on can word for word.
Checked all earth wire connections- fine battery connections also fine.
Cleaned all the leads with de greaser and dried off.Checked ht lead against block -fine
cleaned out dist cap.-Cleaned out spark plugs and re fitted.
Adjusted the idling speed and mixture adjustments on the carb as described in
PAGE 61 (Idling speed and mixture adjustments with out a co meter) (Chapter 3) Haynes Manual.
Waited till engine had cooled down and went for the start procedure nutrual clutch in press gas pedal hold in release start. And h*ll's bells it started first time.Did this a few times and every time i shut her down before restart.I held down gas pedal to activate the auto choke and she started.Even went out earlier and again it worked :) :) :).I am waiting for the snow 2 pi** off and the salt on the roads as to get to the garage and double check mixture on diagnostics co2 and get  the timing checked. Also with regards to the warm start as long as i give the gas pedal 2 quick pumps when turning over she starts .......................

Sounds like you're getting there; good job.   ;)  Let us know how things are when the snow melts and you can go for a drive.  :D

Tomorrows project is sortin out that tee peice going to speek to a plumber i know to make one up.
 and connect the half inch crankcase pipe and 6mm pipe of the carb with the urban filter fitted to the top of the tee.

That should look good but just making a small hole in the 1/2" pipe and sticking in the 6mm pipe is simple and should work well; the soft rubber of the 1/2" pipe will seal well round the 6mm pipe. If you decide to do that, do it very close to the Urban breather filter so if at a later time you decide to change things, you should be able to simply cut off the end of the 1/2" pipe to eliminate the hole you made.

Ok Theo.
Thanks for info.........

Hey congratulations !

Good job, !

Now i would still verify if the coil you using is the kind matching you ignition.

Miro

Miro.
Not to sound stupid again but how do i confirm that.

One last general ? for the night the 131 Mirafiori sport data book states, recomends amongst others the Champion N 7 Y Plug i have orderd Champion N6YC plugs i take it they will work fine and better than the NKG plugs i have.

Yes N6Y (N6YC, N6YCC) are the right plugs for the 131 Sport. I am sure that's what the original publications used to say with N7Y offered as an alternative "in certain countries". I seem to remember Sweden mentioned. When Champion changed to copper core plugs (that's the 'C') they reduced their range of plugs as the heat range of copper core plugs is wider. Having owned at least one 131 Sport since 1982,  I've used many different plugs in the 131 Sport engine and found the Champion N6Y (or copper core N6YC or double copper N6YCC) to be the best while the Bosch W200T30 were the worst. Having said that, I now have Bosch Super-4 W56 plugs in my 131 Sport and they seem to be OK. But I recently bought some Champion N6YC plugs on ebay (arrived today in fact) so I'll be going back to them at the next service in preparation for 3ma10  :D

Ok,

you have Bosh system type 0.227.100.014 electronic ignition. This is the right type for your engine type. It is generally considered indestructible !

The coil should be of the following specifications :

Ohmic resistance of primary winding : 1,2-1.6 ohm
Ohmic resistance of secondary winding : 6000 - 10000 ohm

It should be a bosh type: 0.221.122.012

Your coil has to have type nu,ber and you should be able to check for equivalents on the net.
I am sure someone this forum knows other coils that meet the Bosch requirements. I dop not know this.  


The whole system consist of these elements :

- electronic module Bosch type 0.227.100.014 (you have that)
- distributor  Bosch 0.237.001.002 (it is most likely you have the right distributor but do check the markings. NOTE:  do not remove the distributor from the block -
- ignition coil Bosch 0.221.122.012 (check the markings and look up on the internet for equivalents)
- resistor ( 9 ohm +/- 0.05 ohm)  Bosch type 0.227.900.002  I have not seen this part on yourt pictures and it is really very important .    

It is available from Bosh ( look in the on line catalog (link below)

http://ecat-online.bosch.de/toc/en/0000ef9JJ-_JAhxQ-fa2x1ZrNA2:-1.srv?view=VIndexFramesetJsp

You need to do a bit of searching for the coil , but you should be able to find one on the net , here is what i found :

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Bobine-%E9lectronique-allumage-Simca-Talbot-Matra_W0QQitemZ320450711673QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091127?IMSfp=TL091127188001r6260

Miro



 

Most (all?) UK 131 Sports I have seen have the Magnetti Marelli system so I don't know much about the Bosch system. I do, however, have this Bosch system fitted to both my Gamma and my Trevi. It's a strange system as it uses a ballast resistor for the coil but does not have the usual bypass to the ballast resistor during engine cranking. So the coil is permanently running on a reduced voltage. If the coil was replaced for a 'standard' 12V coil, then this ballast resistor will not be needed and the system will still work fine. As there seems to be a strong spark and the car now also seems to start easily I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I tend to agree , as long as the spark is strong at both high and low rpm, but other have different opinion about the resistor.

see: http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1911&p=10108&hilit=bosch+ignition#p10108

Miro  

No, I think we are in agreement about the resistor. The Bosch coil MUST have it's resistor in place otherwise it will have 12V on its primary winding and eventually burn out. I also said further up in this thread that these electronic units work best with their OE coils but presumably a 'standard' coil will work reasonably well too although will only provide the sort of spark one would get from a 'standard' points system. The main difference in the coils between standard and electronic is in the primary windings incidentally. There's a limit to the amount of current that a set of points can 'sink' without burning out. Coils intended for electronic ignition units have lower impedance primary windings  and will therefore require much higher current which is not a problem for the switching transistor in the electronic control modules. 

Thanks Thotos,


this explains it clearly.

I was not entirely clear of the differences.

Miro

Theo & Miro
Thanks again you two always have an answer and info to back it up. !!
I will follow up when i get time.

Ok Theo.
Here is my solution to the crankshaft breather pipe and the 6mm pipe of the bottom of the carb made it up today and fitted.